Nalates Urriah “All About Mesh”

Talk given at MW November 17, 2011
[17:03] Monica Balut: Hello everyone. Let’s get started.
[17:03] Monica Balut: Welcome to Model’s Workshop.
[17:04] Monica Balut: Today’s workshop will be entirely in text chat since Nalates wants to have a record of it and so do we.
[17:04] Monica Balut: To view the demos of mesh here today, you will have to have a mesh capable viewer. Phoenix, Imprudence and other v 1 viewers will not display mesh properly.
[17:04] Monica Balut: The SL viewer, Firestorm, Kirstens and Dolphin are all mesh capable.
[17:04] Monica Balut: mmm chat is lagging a bit here tonight.
[17:08] Monica Balut: Please grab a seat and detach your AO’s
[17:08] Monica Balut: lag is a killer here right now
[17:09] Monica Balut: Hopefull it will slow down
[17:09] Monica Balut: Those of you who know me well, know that i’m not much into blogs.
[17:09] Celeste Python: hopefully it will speed up
[17:09] Monica Balut: My own blog is pretty pathetic. Luckily the MW blog is managed by Sequoia Nightfire or otherwise, if it were left up to me, it would be as pathetic as my own blog.
[17:10] Monica Balut: There are two blogs that I do read daily however. I’m constantly checking the Phoenix blog eagerly anticipating the next release of the Firestorm viewer.
[17:12] Monica Balut: About a year ago, I discovered Nalates Urriah’s blog, “Nalates Things and Stuff” ( ).
[17:12] Monica Balut: In a very level headed manner, Nalates reports on what is going on in SL and at Linden Labs. She reports regularly on the latest viewer and server ‘Updates” including what the Lindens have fixed as well as messed up in the latest release. She reviews a number of the more popular viewers. … and much more.
[17:12] Monica Balut: Nalates’ blog is a great way to stay up on what’s going on in SL, especially if you appreciate the more geeky aspects of it, like I do.
[17:12] Monica Balut: Knowing that mesh is a topic of great interest to the fashion community, I wanted to organinze a workshop on this topic.
[17:12] Monica Balut: Nalates immediately came to mind as the perfect person to lead this workshop. Luckily for us, she eagerly accepted my invitation to do this.
[17:13] Monica Balut: Please welcome Nalates Urriah!
[17:13] Celeste Python: Yay!
[17:13] Anabella Ravinelli: welcome!!!
[17:13] Lin Carlucci: welcome Nalates
[17:13] Nalates Urriah: It’s nice to be here. I appreciate being invited and your being here. If I can just get to the stage… 🙂
[17:14] Monica Balut: try to teleport there directly That works better than walking
[17:14] Nalates Urriah: Thx. I hope to be able to give you some useful information on mesh, explain where it is going, and some of mesh’s gotchas. It will probably work best if we keep questions until the end. But, I’m flexible.
[17:15] Nalates Urriah: So, if think it shouldn’t wait… go for it. But, if it can please wait.
[17:15] Nalates Urriah: First, for those that are having trouble understanding what is meant by mesh, I want you to know that In Second Life, we do not use the term ‘mesh’ the way the rest of the world does, which contributes some confusion. Explaining what is meant in SL will get techie, but I’ll try to keep it to a minimum.
[17:16] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:16] Nalates Urriah: To see the real mesh in SL, just as in The Matrix, we take the red pill… press Ctrl-Shift-R. This is the mesh the rest of the world thinks of as mesh. Everything in a virtual world is mesh. Everything is made of triangular polygons in all virtual worlds. At the corner of every triangle is a vertex. I’ll come back to vertices in a bit. You can press Ctrl-Shift-R to take the Blue pill and change back to normal.
[17:17] Nalates Urriah: In SL by ‘mesh’ we mean the same thing. BUT… we generally think of it a bit differently. In SL we think of mesh as the NEW THINGS we can make with 3D modeling programs. Almost every time we hear the word mesh in SL it means the new things we can build. But, what exactly is the difference?
[17:18] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:18] Nalates Urriah: I’ll try to make this simple. In SL we build with Prims (primitives). We have cubes, spheres, cylinders, sculpties, and more. These are predefined mesh objects. If you look at the image I have facing you, it shows the build tool in edit mode and I have the prim type drop down open. You can see a list of prim types we have in SL. At one time during the Beta Development one of those types was Mesh.
[17:19] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:19] Nalates Urriah: The cubes and spheres are predefined mesh we can deform with twists, cuts, holes, and tapers. A sculpty is a semi-predefined mesh. What we call Mesh was to be a predefined ‘free form’ mesh. But that got changed before Mesh was released. You can imagine the dichotomy between ‘free form’ and ‘predefined’. The programming side of that incongruence is too geeky to get into. Suffice to say our ‘mesh’ is a special kind of SL Prim that did not fit the typical ‘predefined’ prim mold.
[17:19] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:19] Nalates Urriah: Let me know if I go too fast or too slow.
[17:20] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:20] Nalates Urriah: What we mean by sculpties and mesh is almost identical. Except for how we bring them into SL (import/upload) and the limits on sculpties, mesh is the same thing. In the simplest terms the differences between a mesh/sculpty and all other prims is we can edit each vertex. Let’s look at an image of my pumpkin.
[17:21] Nalates Urriah: You can see the mesh that makes it.
[17:21] Nalates Urriah: Zooming in…
[17:22] Nalates Urriah: These are images from Blender, the 3D moeling program I use. In this image you can see I selected 1 vertex.
[17:22] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:22] Nalates Urriah: In this next image, I’ve moved the single vertex. All the term mesh, in SL, really means is we gained the ability to edit vertices and move them wherever we want. There is lots of geeky stuff in SL that had to change so we could do this. It may seem odd that it took something like 3 years to change SL to handle this seemingly little thing. The 3 years thing hopefully gives you a hint of the complexity involved.
[17:23] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:23] Nalates Urriah: If you are left wondering what the difference is between sculpty and mesh, it comes down to just a few things. On the technical side there are lots of rules and fixed limits for sculpties. Mesh is very much unrestrained, free form.
[17:24] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:24] Nalates Urriah: From the user side the big difference is in what creators can do with mesh clothes. I’ll show you those differences rather than try to describe them.
[17:24] Nalates Urriah: Since we have some using older viewers I’ll take pic and put them up.
[17:25] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:25] Nalates Urriah: That is the end of the geeky stuff. If you aren’t making mesh clothes that should give you the basic thing on what we mean by ‘mesh’ in SL.
[17:25] Nalates Urriah: If there are any tech questions on the tech, now is probably a good time to ask.
[17:26] Nalates Urriah: Otherwise, I’ll mve on…
[17:26] Anabella Ravinelli: none here so far 😉
[17:26] Nalates Urriah: \o/
[17:26] Monica Balut: Very clear
[17:26] Nalates Urriah: Let’s look at a sculpty jacket. I’ll put one on as you read. Notice the time it takes to rez. Notice the elbows. Notice my breasts poke through now and then because I’m wearing and excessive jiggle. You may notice some places where skin pokes through. Also, as I walk notice how the torso moves with me. The torso part of the jacket is rigid. If you right click on the jacket you will see it is made of several different parts. I have 5 items attached.
[17:26] Kymsara Rayna: good Nal
[17:27] Nalates Urriah: I have no idea how long it will take to rez…
[17:27] Celeste Python: where’s mesh deformation?
[17:28] Celeste Python: hmmm… the elbow joints have problems as you type
[17:29] Nalates Urriah: I have spent some time trying to get this jacket to fit… :/
[17:30] Nalates Urriah: chat lag…
[17:30] Nalates Urriah: I’ll come to that toward the end. So, it will be more understandable… ok? — I hope I’m not repeating this…
[17:31] Nalates Urriah: Hopefully I’m walking. Notice how the torso of the jacket moves.
[17:32] Anabella Ravinelli: you are yes
[17:32] Nalates Urriah: Shoulders and waist move the same direction.
[17:32] Nalates Urriah: (thx Ana)
[17:32] Monica Balut: it moves along with the attachment points it is attached to
[17:32] Nalates Urriah: Yes, Now I’ll ditch the jacket and change over to a mesh skirt and later a mesh sweater.
[17:32] Monica Balut: or rather attachment point
[17:33] Anabella Ravinelli: (yw)
[17:34] Nalates Urriah: This is a mesh shirt so several you will see it as a ball.
[17:34] Celeste Python: cute, the wrinkles in the fabric in the small of your back 🙂
[17:34] Nalates Urriah: It is a demo, because I didn’t want to pay for the bad example I wanted.
[17:34] Lin Carlucci: 🙂
[17:34] Nalates Urriah: I chose mesh clothes makers that provide demos of their clothes. I want to say these are talented creators. Avoid thinking I’m picking on them when I show you the faults in their clothes. These are early attempts, beginner stuff… sort of. They make some really nice non-mesh stuff so I know they have talent.
[17:35] Nalates Urriah: And they are fair enough with their customer to offer a good demo version to try. So, that says somethng.
[17:35] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:35] Nalates Urriah: That said the fit and details of mesh clothes leave a lot to be desired. The point is even good clothes makers have a lot to learn about making mesh clothes, which means we need to learn a lot about buying them.
[17:36] Nalates Urriah: ‘
[17:36] Nalates Urriah: We have all worn the typical prim skirt. One of the annoying things about these skirts is what they do when we sit. They do not conform to how our body moves. I’ll rez a poser I’ve had forever and show you how mesh clothes differ.
[17:36] mostfun4u: should we see the shirt now?
[17:36] Monica Balut: the skirt she has on is mesh
[17:36] Nalates Urriah: If you have a mesh viewer, yes.
[17:37] Celeste Python: yay it doesn’t cut through your legs
[17:37] Lin Carlucci: 😦
[17:37] mostfun4u: got it “skirt not shirt”
[17:37] Diana Balhaus: its wonderful I like
[17:37] Nalates Urriah: I’m getting an image uploaded
[17:38] Nalates Urriah: A prim skirt would not change when my legs move to a sitting position. The mesh skirt does and without scripts. So, one of the big advantages of mesh skirts and other mesh clothes are they follow our movements. They actually follow our body’s movement and flex at the joints. That flexing with our body is something sculpties cannot do. Earlier we saw sculpties flexible joints are like a mannequin’s joints. The sculpty does not flex. Mesh clothes flex to follow my movements. Notice you cannot right click on my mesh clothes and tell they are attachments. I can’t right-click and edit it. I can’t change its size. Next I’ll put on a cute poncho.
[17:38] Lin Carlucci: ho yes its nice
[17:39] Nalates Urriah: Nice but not at all modest. 🙂
[17:39] Celeste Python: well, the pose is not modest 🙂
[17:40] Nalates Urriah: Well real cloth will fall and some of us think we can make mesh skirts that will do that too. We’ll see.
[17:41] Nalates Urriah: I have the mesh poncho on now. Once the texture rez’s I’ll get a pic
[17:43] Nalates Urriah: this ine is lagging… sorry
[17:43] Monica Balut: I hava a pic Nal
[17:43] Monica Balut: I can upload it
[17:44] Nalates Urriah: I got the 2nd one up. You can see the mesh following my arms.
[17:44] Monica Balut: How does it know how to do that?
[17:45] Nalates Urriah: That is an advantage of mesh clothes. It is called rigged mesh if you want to learn more about it.
[17:46] Nalates Urriah: So far things work pretty well. Let’s get into the gotcha’s and not so wonderful things about mesh. I’ll take off the poncho and put on the sweater that comes with the dress.
[17:47] Nalates Urriah: This dress comes in 3 sizes. All three are in the package. I am wearing the largest size and it is too small for me. You’ll see I’m busting out. Also, I have on my (excessive) breast jiggle. You will see the mesh does not move with my breasts. If you are using a jiggle in your butt, the mesh is not going to follow it either.
[17:48] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:48] Nalates Urriah: You see me bouncing through the top.
[17:48] Lin Carlucci: 🙂
[17:48] Monica Balut: wardrobe malfunction!
[17:48] Anabella Ravinelli: hehe
[17:48] Nalates Urriah: You should also notice the shoulders and waist move in different directions
[17:49] Diana Balhaus: lol
[17:49] Nalates Urriah: One of the interesting new things about mesh is the guys can perv and look down my blouse. Something not possible with system tops. With Sculpties and Mesh more realistic clothing is possible. As I walk the mesh top will move with me reasonably well as my torso twists, especially if I take off my jiggle. The sculpty jacket didn’t. as it is rigid. You can see the shoulders and waist move different directions.
[17:50] Nalates Urriah: If you have mesh capable… Alt-click on my breasts and cam in. Swing over my shoulder or to the side and watch the sweater as you do. You’ll see a gap between my skin and the sweater. I’ll put up an image so you’re sure what I mean.
[17:50] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:50] Nalates Urriah: I’ll get an image.
[17:50] Nalates Urriah: You may also notice you are looking through the sweater to see the floor or whatever is behind me. These are mesh fit problems. As one gets the clothing closer to the skin the fewer avatars it will fit. The Lindens understand this problem and the quick and easy solution in Lindens minds was Alpha Layers. I’ll put on the alpha layer for the sweater.
[17:50] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:50] mostfun4u: on my screen the sweater didnt completly rez
[17:51] mostfun4u: can you rebake
[17:51] Nalates Urriah: If you are seeing lots of holes that is it. If it is fuzzy, I’m rebaking.
[17:51] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:52] Nalates Urriah: Well… you can see this top’s alpha layer leaves a lot to be desired. Fortunately we can make our own and sort of clean it up. But, the alpha layer can create some other problems. One is when the mesh clothing is smaller than the avatar. Look along the bottom edge of the sweater where it meets the small of my back, sides, and tummy.
[17:52] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:52] Nalates Urriah: I just added the alpha layer so it should look a little better.
[17:52] Monica Balut: I see mosltly skin
[17:53] Nalates Urriah: are you still in Phoenix?
[17:53] Monica Balut: ok the alpha layer helps
[17:53] Monica Balut: It just rezzed
[17:53] Lin Carlucci: i am in phoenix and i see mostly skin
[17:53] Nalates Urriah: What you are seeing is the mismatches between where my avatar skin is and where the mesh clothing is. Things are not matching up well because the mesh does not fit me well. For another problem let’s take a look at the skirt as I sit.
[17:53] mostfun4u: I switched to firestorm and see mostly skin with lots of holes
[17:54] Nalates Urriah: If you see holes in me… that is the alpha layer.
[17:54] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:54] Nalates Urriah: Fortunately you can make an alpha layer to use with any mesh clothes. One makes them just as they would any shirt or pants. Make it black where you want clear and white where you want skin and system clothes to show. It is tedious making an alpha layer that hides what needs to be hidden and leaves what needs to be seen.
[17:55] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:55] Nalates Urriah: So, obviously buying mesh without a demo first, is a bad idea.
[17:55] Monica Balut: Your breasts are still showing thru even with the alpha
[17:55] Nalates Urriah: This is much slower than I expected.
[17:55] Nalates Urriah: Yes, its not the best alpha layer.
[17:55] Nalates Urriah: You’ll hear some say mesh adjusts to your size. We have seen it doesn’t for breast, tummy, and butt size. If you play with your shape’s height you’ll see mesh will change to fit your height. It will adjust for JOINT position changes; height, shoulder width, and leg and arm length. This is what some mean when they say mesh adjusts to your ‘size’.
[17:56] mostfun4u: on my screen your arms are filling in but your breasts are still exposed
[17:56] Nalates Urriah: .There is a movement by some creators to have people use standard avatar sizes. This is definitely a creator’s idea. If we all have the same size and shape, it will be easy to fit us into the mesh clothes they make. See:
[17:56] Monica Balut: So mesh is confined to a particular size and can’t be resized
[17:56] Nalates Urriah: Yes and no
[17:56] Nalates Urriah: It will conform to JOINTS.
[17:57] Anabella Ravinelli: oh gosh that won’t happen, models would throw a fit
[17:57] Monica Balut: I agree Ana
[17:57] Nalates Urriah: So if I make me talker it will fit. If I get short, it will fit. If I have DD cups I’ll stick up… :/
[17:58] Nalates Urriah: (I agree Ana. The Lindens were surpised no one was willing to change shape )
[17:58] Anabella Ravinelli: So a big disadvantage is everyone has to have the same shape
[17:58] Anabella Ravinelli: yeah 😦
[17:58] Monica Balut: But there is no way to edit the item itself like we edit other prims?
[17:58] Nalates Urriah: Sort of.
[17:58] mostfun4u: wow
[17:58] Oya Laville: not gonna happen lol
[17:58] Nalates Urriah: But the Deformation project is an attempt to fix that
[17:59] Nalates Urriah: When we think about where mesh is going and what will be done with it, we can make a few informed guesses. The mesh fit or Mesh Deformation Project is wanted by the Lab, residents, and content creators. So, that is likely to happen. So, better fitting mesh clothes are coming.
[17:59] Nalates Urriah: .
[17:59] Monica Balut: oh good
[17:59] Nalates Urriah: Second Life residents are new to 3D modeling. Mesh clothes are a bit primitive right now. Clothes makers will get better over time. I’m learning more about a thing called weight painting that controls how clothes move. I hope to make skirts that behave better when we sit. In any case clothes will improve with time as will other things built with mesh.
[18:00] Nalates Urriah: We are out of time… and I’ll answer questions or I have more if you want?
[18:00] Monica Balut: So this may take the better part of a year to work itself out?
[18:00] Lin Carlucci: Thanks Nalates for the leson
[18:01] Nalates Urriah: I think we will have mesh fit in 6 months
[18:01] Monica Balut: Do some pple have examples of mesh they want to show?
[18:01] Lin Carlucci: i must go now its 3 am at my time 🙂
[18:01] Nalates Urriah: yw, Lin
[18:01] Ramsa Luv: i have
[18:01] Lin Carlucci: bye
[18:01] Anabella Ravinelli: Do you have a suggestion of some good places to learn how to make it?
[18:01] Nalates Urriah: I do… There are two people that make pretty good video tutorials.
[18:01] Ramsa Luv: i stand and show my 100% mesh avi ready avi
[18:02] mostfun4u: Im new to creating and new to second life. Is there a benefit for me to learn traditional methods first or to simply pursue mesh techniques
[18:02] Anabella Ravinelli: oh good
[18:02] Ramsa Luv: all redy?
[18:02] Ramsa Luv: to see?
[18:02] Nalates Urriah: I’m diggin out linos
[18:02] Monica Balut: come show us Ramsa
[18:02] Nalates Urriah: links^
[18:02] Kiyuri: yep 🙂
[18:03] Anabella Ravinelli: yayy
[18:03] Nalates Urriah: This is a blog and tutorial by Gaia Clairy:
[18:03] Monica Balut: oh she does nice tutorials
[18:03] Ramsa Luv: all mesh
[18:04] Monica Balut: I just learned how to make sculpties from her
[18:04] Monerda Skute: even your av Wicked?
[18:04] Ramsa Luv: löl
[18:04] Anabella Ravinelli: tyyyyy
[18:04] LoneWolf83: i see only blocks and spheres
[18:04] Ramsa Luv: i maked this this week
[18:04] Monerda Skute: my first time seeing a mesh av!
[18:04] Nalates Urriah: I’ll get u the other one later.
[18:04] Ramsa Luv: all itmes is inword or marketplace
[18:04] Monerda Skute: very nice
[18:04] Monica Balut: You don’t have a mesh capable viewer LoneWolf
[18:04] Anabella Ravinelli: Rmasa can you take a snapshot to show those of us not in a mesh viewer?
[18:05] Ramsa Luv: hair is resizers
[18:05] Monica Balut: I;ll take a snap shot
[18:05] Monerda Skute: what did you use to create with Wicked?
[18:05] Nalates Urriah: MostFun4u, I would learn mesh for SL, it is pretty much the convential mesh for all 3D worlds. (?)
[18:05] mostfun4u: okay
[18:06] Nalates Urriah: Wicked, would you try the pose stand and try some of the poses?
[18:06] Kiyuri: ty Wicked for showing us
[18:06] Inventory creation on in-world object failed.
[18:06] Monerda Skute: that is awesome 🙂
[18:06] Inventory creation on in-world object failed.
[18:07] Ramsa Luv: O(◣_◢)OYAAA☆AAAYO(◣_◢)O
[18:07] Ramsa Luv: wicked ;)?
[18:07] Oya Laville: yes?
[18:07] Oya Laville: lol
[18:08] Anabella Ravinelli: wow Ramsa
[18:08] Ramsa Luv: ❤··..•°•··..☺ !!!*~~APPLAUSE~~* !!! ☺..··•°•..··❤
[18:08] Monerda Skute: oh my yes!
[18:08] Anabella Ravinelli: not bad
[18:08] Anabella Ravinelli: amazing
[18:08] Ramsa Luv: ;))
[18:08] Monica Balut: And Nal mentioned Blender. It is a free program
[18:08] Diana Balhaus: ☆Applause☆
[18:08] Monica Balut:
[18:08] Monerda Skute: applause
[18:09] Amalfia Hanly: *applause*
[18:09] Monica Balut: Thank you Nal.
[18:09] Nalates Urriah: ty, I hope you learned something.
[18:09] Anabella Ravinelli: ty so much Nal 🙂
[18:09] Anabella Ravinelli: *.:.* APPLAUSE APPLAUSE *.:.*
[18:09] Monica Balut: Wasn’t this a great workshop!! Let’s give her a big THANK YOU.
[18:09] Monerda Skute: thanks Nal 🙂
[18:09] Monerda Skute: THANK YOU !!!!
[18:09] Amalfia Hanly: thank you Nal *applause*
[18:09] Monica Balut: Make sure to visit Nal’s blog if you are interested in keeping up with this topic and want to stay abreast of what’s going on in SL and other grids.
[18:09] mostfun4u: Nicely done
[18:09] Samantha Ohrberg: Nal… very informative…..:)
[18:09] Samantha Ohrberg: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[18:09] Nalates Urriah: u r all very welcome
[18:10] Monica Balut: Next Thursday is the American Thanksgiving holiday. Many of us will either be away or busy hosting relatives. Neither I nor Lulu will be around. So we will not have a workshop on 11/24. We’ll pick back up on 12/1 with a topic that is yet to be determined.
[18:10] Kymsara Rayna: yes, thanks so much Nal
[18:10] Ramsa Luv: thx chance show avi and was nice hour;)
[18:10] Monica Balut: Also FYI, I will be starting a series of classes on how to use and set up the Balut Runway HUD. The first class will be an introduction to its features and will not require that you own it. We will work from a demo version.
[18:10] LoneWolf83: thats it! I want some compensation for the time i wasted here!
[18:10] Monica Balut: If you are interested in these classes, IM me for dates and times.
[18:10] Kiyuri: ty Nal 🙂
[18:10] Monica Balut: Thanks again for coming tonight.


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